We met up with new media director Ross Ching at Urth Caffè in Little Tokyo, downtown Los Angeles. The restaurant is quaint and flanked by unremarkable buildings, but there is a bustle of people there that spills outside, and the cacophony of silverware clinking, coffee sipping, and the collective chattering of Angelenos — a crowd as diverse as Ross’s works — makes it seem fresh and alive. Ross is mild-mannered and personable, and he casually sips on a green tea boba milkshake as we talk about his secret formula for making a viral video, how the internet has taught him nearly everything he knows, the artistry of time-lapse photography, and what it’s like working with “Glee’s” Harry Shum Jr.
Earlier in the day, we photographed Ross Ching on the 101N and other L.A. streets in a homage to his homage, “Running on Empty.” Read on to see the photos and to get the exclusive NMR scoop on a director whose work is sure to come to a theater near you one day in the future.
- Name one of your guilty pleasures: I live really close to where I work, so sometimes in the afternoon–when I get tired–I go home and take a nap, and then I go back to work.
- I was going to bring a phonebook for you to rip in half, but couldn’t find one. What’s the secret to ripping a phonebook in half? There’s a video on YouTube on how you can rip a phonebook in half where you try to put a little crease in it with your thumbs and then you pull it apart where there’s an air gap and then you can just tear the whole thing apart. Once you get that first tear in the top of it you can just rip the whole thing.
- You once had something like eight or nine bowls of ice cream in one day. What’s your favorite ice cream? Chocolate chip. From three-years-old to now, my favorite ice cream has been chocolate chip. I’m not a fan of chocolate ice cream but I like chocolate chip. I don’t know why.
Who are some of your favorite YouTube personalities?
Ross Ching: I would say Freddie Wong, Corridor Digital, and Epic Meal Time.
Do you ever learn anything from Corridor Digital’s videos?
Yeah. I mean, the Internet has taught me almost everything I know about computers, visual effects, and movie making. I went to film school in San Diego State, and I learned some stuff, but the Internet has taught me 75 percent of what I know. You learn stuff from Googling tutorials. There’s this site called “Video CoPilot” that teaches you a lot of stuff. Freddie Wong and Corridor Digital have little how-to tutorials as well, which I’ve learned a lot from. They are one of my favorite channels.
You’ve said before that you learned more from the Internet than you ever could have if you had just been in school, and that you only took a total of five pages of notes while you were in school. Only five pages of notes? Of what?
Sometimes you have to write down stuff just to memorize it. I rarely only took notes; I just paid attention. I have an inherent interest in filmmaking, so I voluntarily wanted to know as much as possible about filmmaking. Since I had that drive, it helped me learn better and helped me memorize things better rather than having to take notes to memorize things. In filmmaking, you can’t really take notes. It’s more learning by doing.
When I read your bios, it always starts off, “Ross Ching: graduated from San Diego State University film school.” So you did learn something, and you’re proud of it, right?
Film school is important in that it teaches you how to work together with a team; a producer, a director of photography, a production designer, and all of that. You get used to onset etiquette and how things work. In the real world, you don’t have people to walk you through how things happen on a set, and I think that part of film school really taught me a lot. But I think the film theory aspect of it is kind of–it’s really hard to study film–you have to do film to learn it. It really has to be hands-on.
Then do you think you could have just bypassed all of it and not gone to college and still be doing what you’re doing?
The way things have panned out, I could have been a high school drop out and still be doing what I’m doing now. No one has ever looked at my resume. No one has ever really interviewed me. At the same time, the college experience is worth those four years after high school because it’s kind of a transition phase of being coddled by your parents to the real world. You need a little transition phase. You can’t just throw yourself out there into the real world and expect to be successful or get a really well-paying job. Having said that, when I first graduated and moved to LA, it was December of ’08 and the economy just tanked. I was looking for a job from probably February to May. I began thinking, “How can I take the reins in my own hands?” No one is really going to give me a job offer if I have nothing to show for it. I made this video and put it to a Death Cab for Cutie song, and I kind of just stuck it on the web. I really saw it as something that I could show people as a reel piece. It ended up hitting the front page of Digg.com. Right after that moment, It started spreading all over the place. The band saw it and really liked it a lot, and they ended up buying it from me and made it their official video. Production companies started contacting me for representation, and things got bigger and bigger, kind of like a snowball effect. If you get the attention of one person, then things will get bigger and bigger. It’s how I got started with it, and it’s all thanks to new media. If the Twitter world didn’t exist, or if the social media aspect of the Internet didn’t exist, I would have posted it up and it would have gotten 20 views, and I would still be searching Craigslist for a job. The new media aspect was definitely a really important part of my career.
What’s interesting is that when you made that video, you could have sent it directly to Death Cab for Cutie–who you’re a really big fan of–but at the same time, you were scared that they would shut it down for copyright infringement. You put it out there, and it just happened to get big, and at that point you had the power because everyone had already seen it.
When a video gets popular, with that comes a little bit of power. A lot of times with a huge band, especially, their label would say, “Take it down. We don’t want this out there.” If I put it out there, and a lot of people see it, and a lot of people like it; and it’s creative and artistic–and it’s not just exploiting the band–they’re going to see it as more of an artistic endeavor and let it be what it is, especially because I wasn’t making any money off of it, and I was a struggling director. Once it caught fire, they saw it as an opportunity to benefit both parties.
Who are your top three favorite directors?
Christopher Nolan, Spielberg, and probably David Fincher.
Those three film directors are very different. I can see a film school graduate saying that they like Nolan and Fincher, but why do you say Spielberg? He’s a great director, but it’s not necessarily “cool” for film students to like Spielberg because he’s very much a populist director.
Some of his movies have been better than others. But for the most part, he’s made some of the best movies of all time. I think that all three of those directors have something in common in that all of their movies are very story-driven. I’m not really a fan of the 200 million dollar Transformers-type movies where there’s no real story, and it’s just spectacle. There’s tons of really great directors out there, but those three directors are very story-driven. I think that’s kind of what drives me in thinking of concepts. I’ve done music videos from trance all the way to Kina [Grannis]. The genre of music and the genre of commercials I do is very different. What kind of ties it all together is a really unique story that has cool cinematography or a cool twist in the end. Those three directors have different genres of film and their styles are very different but the stories they do are very powerful and that’s what I like about them. I would also put Robert Zemeckis in there. He did Forrest Gump and Back to the Future. I liked his older stuff more than his newer stuff because now he’s all digital. A lot of his digital stuff is motion capture, and I’m not really a fan of the motion capture stuff like Avatar. It was really well done, but it’s not one of my top movies of all time.
YouTube vs. Vimeo. Which do you prefer?
YouTube and Vimeo are very similar, and yet they have distinct differences. Vimeo is more of an artistic outlet for high production value videos that garner more of an artistic branding to them. YouTube is more for the low production value videos that you can crank out really fast. Wong Fu has a series called “Wong Fu Weekends.” It’s their behind the scenes footage that they have that they shoot every single week. It’s quality stuff, and I sit through it once every other week and watch their videos, but it’s not high quality artistic, really cinematic kind of stuff. I think Vimeo is a better outlet for that kind of stuff. You won’t see the 50 million view videos on Vimeo but at the same time, the quality of the views on Vimeo say a lot more than the quantity of views on YouTube. It really depends on what you’re working on, but I like them both.
You started off making skating videos in high school. What was so slick about them?
When I first started making films I was 14, and my friends and I just got into skating. We weren’t very good at skating; we were okay. We could ollie, we could kickflip, we could go off two sets of stairs. We started filming ourselves, and I started messing around on my dad’s computer. Back then, it was called Pinnacle Studio version 1.0. What amazed people, more than our tricks, was the quality of editing we were able to do. The tricks were always “whatever,” but we started getting better at making these videos. From the skate videos it morphed to these World War II type of videos, and from that it morphed to these lightsaber videos. It was a Star Wars fan films type thing. We made a Star Wars lightsaber video that did really well, and people were wondering how we did the effects. It got us thinking some more. How could we take these effects to the next level and do cinematography to the next level and make these things really cool? I went to film school and started learning about all of these things. More than anything, those skate videos kind of jump-started my thinking that I could make movies as a living. Because I grew up in the Bay Area, I thought I was going to be a software engineer or a web designer.
How did you first become interested in time-lapse photography?
At San Diego State, you have to apply to get into the major. I knew the competition was really tough in the major, and so I wanted to make something that would stand out from the rest of them. A lot of these people were making these videos where they were just like, ” I took my Sony Handycam out and filmed my friends doing something funny.” I really wanted to do something that was really highly stylized and looked really good, but all I had was a still camera. I began thinking about how I could use a still camera to do video, so I took my camera out and did these time lapses, and that was back when no one ever really did time lapses on the Internet. I had to teach myself how to do time lapses and put the photos into a video and make a cohesive video. That’s kind of how I got into it. Then I put that one up online, and it got 80,000 views in its first week, and it kind of shifted my mind from narrative filmmaking to experimental filmmaking and doing videos that were out of the ordinary versus videos that everyone else did. Doing that really shifted my thinking into “How can I make something that no one else has done before?” “Eclectic 1” was my first experiment. “Eclectic 2” was the second one where I incorporated panning, up and down, and stuff like that. In “Eclectic 3,” I incorporated tilt shift. I was lucky enough to hit all of those things before they became popular. I think that really kind of got me known as the “time lapse guy.”
You’re known for doing these expansive time lapse photography videos with big panoramic shots, like the ones seen in those “Eclectic” videos. They’re spectacular. But can you remember the very first time you experimented with time lapse? Was it something mundane?
The very first time lapse I did, I think I was in my room, and I filmed the sun shining through my window and the shadow going across the room. It got me thinking, “How can I take that and make it into a full length three minute video?” I began photographing traffic and stuff like that. Then I figured I would spend one weekend and go out into the desert and camp in my car and film whatever I see. I ended up driving to some of the most picturesque spots that I’ve ever been to out in the Anza-Borrego Desert–it’s kind of by the Salton Sea–and it was another moment where it shifted my mind into the beauty of nature and different ways you can capture nature. You can just snap a picture, or you can morph nature into the way you want the viewer to see it. That’s kind of how that went.
You’ve said that people have described the experience of watching time lapse photography as something like “floating through the universe.” Why do they get that feeling?
I think people find a strong connection with things they’ve never seen before, and they find a strong connection with things that they recognize in a situation that they don’t recognize. If you think about time lapse, really, I’m just photographing something that everyone sees everyday. If you morph it into a situation that no one has ever seen before, it really changes the person’s perspective and it makes it into a different kind of environment. People like being introduced to new things. It’s like when you hear a joke you haven’t heard before that’s really good. It’s kind of like that.
To do your time lapse photography where there’s panning, you put your camera on a rotating telescope tripod. What do you do during that downtime after you’ve set the camera and are waiting for it to finish recording?
Sometimes, the time lapses are really short; like 20 minutes, 15 minutes, or even five minutes. The ones where the stars are rotating across the sky; those are probably more like two hours. I kind of just set the camera up and go in my car and listen to music.
Is there a lot of post-editing when you get that footage?
There’s actually not that much. Since the files are sequential, you kind of just take the folder and drop it in, and it makes a video out of that since they’re all sequential.
So if people have that equipment, they could do what you do?
Anyone can just go onto Google and type in “How to make a time lapse,” and there will probably be 100 pages showing you how to do it. I mean, that’s the great thing about the Internet. Anything that you want to know you can know it within 10 seconds. That’s something that has never been possible in the history of time, really.
One of your early videos was “Running on Empty,” and that was based on Matt Logue’s book, “Empty LA.” Has he ever commented on your video in any way?
No, I haven’t actually heard from him. I know he saw it, because his friend contacted me and showed it to him. He never contacted me or anything. It was heavily inspired by his still photos, and I figured I’d just take it to the next level and do a video on it.
I’ve heard a lot about you claiming to know the formula for a viral video. Firstly, everyone has a different definition of what a “viral video” is. To you, what’s a viral video?
For me, the definition of “viral” is after I watch a video it makes me want to post it to my Twitter, Facebook, or email it to a friend; that’s my definition of viral. Everyone has a different idea. Some people think viral is sticking a video on YouTube. That’s not really viral; that’s more of a digital video. To me, viral is a certain type of video that makes you want to share it to a friend afterwards.
So, with that defined, how do you make a viral video?
Over the years, I kind of came up with a little formula on how to do it. Making a viral video is unlike any other medium that exists. You need to have in mind who your audience is. If you’re trying to make a viral video and you’re doing it for a pharmaceutical company, no one is going to watch that because the demographic is 50 and above, so it’s kind of pointless to make something like that. You have to really have a demographic of 13 to 30 year-olds. I have three things that go into a viral video. First, it needs to be short; three-ish minutes or less depending on what happens. The other one, which is probably the most important one, is the 10 second hook. There needs to be something in the first 10 seconds that makes you want to watch past the first 10 seconds. If you can hook them in, they’re a lot more likely to watch a little bit further. Then, after that first 10 seconds, there needs to be some kind of sustainability. Maybe that’s a story arc, so in the first 10 seconds you establish that the character has a want or a need. It could be beautiful cinematography like “Eclectic,” or it could be a really clever idea like Kina’s domino thing [for “Valentine”]. It’s cool take on stop motion. Those three things work together, and the ultimate goal is to prevent the viewer from clicking the back button or skipping through the video. If the viewer skips through the video, they are more than likely not going to share it with a friend. If they click the back button, they’re definitely not going to share it to a friend. If we can prevent those two things, they’re 20 times more likely to share it with their friends, put it on their Facebook, and put it on their Twitter. If you can get a viewer to do that, then your video becomes viral. If you break down any of my videos, it has those three things. If you take Kina’s video, for example, we have the dominoes, which is the hook, and the story between the little characters is the sustainability that draws you to the end. If you look at “3 Minutes,” the hook is, “You’ve got three minutes, go!” Harry [Shum Jr.] goes running off into the scene, and the sustainability is the gunfight and the lightsaber fight. The twist at the end is the solidifying thing, which is like, “Oh my god, hey man, you’ve got to see this video.” I try to apply that formula to everything that I do. It seems to work. Some are more successful than others, but you can’t make a 10 million view video every time.
So three minutes is an ingredient for a viral video, as well as a short film you made.
That’s one of the reasons why I made “3 Minutes.” I made it exactly three minutes because it kind of introduces a new dimension to the video. There’s the story world, and the fact that the video is exactly three minutes gives the video a new dimension.
Are you a Star Wars fan?
I wouldn’t say I’m a Star Wars fan. I really think the effects world is interesting, and the fact that we can shoot a street in LA and make it look like New York gets me excited. The Star Wars world is cool, but I wouldn’t say that I’m the Star Wars nerd.
I ask because you have lightsabers in “3 Minutes.” There’s this handle, and all of a sudden, it’s revealed as a lightsaber. So did you use it because you like the visual part of it, the video effects that you’d be able to use?
Part of it was we could make lightsabers look really cool. If we took lightsabers out of the Star Wars world and put them in the real world, it could make for a really cool concept. Another thing is that I know that there’s a big Star Wars fan base on the Internet, and if we take the lightsabers – people could identify with light sabers and everybody knows what a lightsaber is. That’s another factor that played into the video to make it more shareable.
That’s also really good marketing.
That’s one thing that a lot of people don’t factor into their work is the marketability of what they’re doing. I think promotion is probably 50 percent or more of a successful video. Granted, you need to make a really good video, but the promotion aspect, without that, your video isn’t really going to go anywhere.
You talk about never wanting to do the same thing twice. You want your videos to be “out of the box.” What makes your videos so different?
With the videos that I do, it all comes down to what is going to be successful on the Internet. What people share on the Internet are funny cat videos and really cool artistic videos. I’m trying to stay out of the low production value world where you make stupid funny videos and get a lot of views. I’m trying to stay in the very high production value world and make very artistic centered stuff. I want to be thought of as someone who can make a really cool video and have money behind it to make something really cool. What kind of drives me to do all of these out of the box ideas is that people want to be wowed. I haven’t talked to anyone who doesn’t want to be wowed. If I can make something where the person says, “Wow, I can’t believe I just watched that!” or “Wow, that’s so amazing!” I think that speaks a lot to the viral-ability of something. The more viral I can make something, the better it is for me and the better it is for the artist.
In your ClaraC music video for “Offbeat,” there are giant bubbles, which you were inspired to use after seeing a beach video that had bubbles. Do you often look to other works for inspiration for your videos?
Inspiration comes from everywhere. I could be sitting at my dinner table and a plate looks like a weird thing, and that could be inspiration. More than anything, though, my inspiration comes from other people’s work. It’s not just saying that I’m copying other people’s work, but if I take one concept here and another concept here and mash them together, it becomes something entirely new – especially if I introduce my style into it, it becomes something entirely new. That’s why I don’t get mad at people who copy anything I do because they got inspired by me, and it’s the way art works. Everyone gets inspired by each other, and as long as you don’t blatantly take my stuff and put it in something else it seems all fair game. Everyone makes something based on their life experiences. If you experience something really cool, why not change that cool thing into something of your own?
First and foremost, you consider yourself a filmmaker. We’re acquainted with your work through “3 Minutes” and other short films, but if a movie studio gave you a big budget and gave you the green light to make a full length movie, what could we expect from you?
If I were to make a full length movie, it’d definitely not be comedy because I’m not really good at making comedy. If you see my films, it has very little actors, and comedy requires a lot of actors. I think it would have action it in, it would have drama; it would have some kind of thriller aspect to it, it would have some kind of suspense aspect of it. I would say it would be something along the lines of Crash, Inception, or Forrest Gump. It would have elements of everything, but I think what would pull it all together would be a solid story that played from beginning to end, that made you feel good at the end of it and make you say, “That was an awesome movie.” I don’t have any specific ideas for a featured film yet. We’re kind of beginning to look down that avenue a bit more now, but it definitely would be something in the dramatic thriller genre.
And of course, it would be beautifully shot.
Cinematography is the main thing that I take into account when I make my movies. Cinematography is one the biggest things for me. I’m more of a cinematographer-director than a writer-director or a choreographer-director.
You’ve directed videos for AJ Rafael, Kina Grannis, and David Choi, among others. Of all the musicians that you’ve personally worked with, who’s your favorite?
I think because of the fact that we had no budget when we shot Clara’s video, that she was one of my favorites. It was more of a collaborative piece. When I first did a music video for her, she was unknown to lots of people. The fact that I played a part in kicking off her career, the fact that she’s really talented and makes really good music, and how much success she’s had after that; I think that was my favorite. She’s a really great person, and we hang out all the time. She’s a really cool girl. Our relationship was more than just “I’m going to make a music video, here’s the music video, and we’re done.” It’s more than a friendship now.
Who would be your dream to work with and make a music video for?
I’ve been really trying to get to do something for Wilco; I’ve been listening to them a lot lately. Granted, they’re not anything huge, but I’d love to do Wilco. I’d love to do Phoenix; Phoenix is really good. I would just say those two. More than anything, I really like to make music videos for songs that I like rather than just doing a video for the money. If I do a video for a song that I like, then I know that I’m going to like the video in the end, and I know I’m going to go the extra mile to make the video go.
So honestly, let’s say Miley Cyrus–or any artist you hated–came to you with this terrible song and said she wanted you to do a music video for her. Would you do it?
Yeah. Granted, music that I don’t like, I don’t like their music videos either, but if some pop star like Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, or Justin Bieber came up to me and said, “I want to do a music video with you,” I’d immediately say, “Yes,” just because the boost that gives to your career and how it legitimizes you to so many record labels is so much powerful than the sell out effect. I would say, “Yes,” in an instant.
I can tell it’s very important for you to be taken seriously, and to become bigger and bigger. And you understand that you have to get big first before you’re able to put out the art you maybe really want to put out, and that it takes time.
I try and limit the amount of content that I put up. I know there’s people on YouTube like Freddy, CorridorDigital, or Wongfu that post up videos every single week, and they’ve gotten a huge fan base by doing that. Their videos don’t have the highest production value to them. They’re kind of like home videos that are done really well. For me, I can put a better video out there every week, but it won’t be a professional looking video. I want to brand myself as a professional looking director that can produce professional looking stuff and not just get a ton of views. To do that, it takes a long time of conceptualizing and post production to make a really good video. Some of the videos take a budget and it’s hard to do that with a YouTube budget. When I release something, it’s something I know I’m very proud of and something that I know that I spent lots of time working on. When I’m conceptualizing the idea, if I don’t have a good concept I won’t make the video. I don’t have a deadline of next week that the video needs to be done. If I can’t come up with the new concept, I can think some more and look around some more for more ideas. I try not to release stuff just to release stuff.
I saw you on a Youtube documentary about Asian Americans’ success in new media. So why are Asian-Americans so predominant in new media? Do you particularly identify as an Asian-American?
I don’t really identify with being Asian only. I get to identify with being both. I get the best of both worlds a little bit. Asians in new media have been so successful because–I know it’s kind of stereotypical–Asians are computer savvy, and they use the Internet a lot. Asians compared to other races use the Internet more. I don’t know what it is about them, but it’s good for Asians in new media because they now have a platform to show their work. I think for me, since I’m behind the camera, it doesn’t really matter as much as if I was in front of the camera. I think Asians in front of the camera have a much harder time than Asians behind the camera. If you’re Asian and you’re behind the camera and you can make something awesome, it doesn’t matter if you’re white, black, Latino, or whatever. As long as you can make something awesome, that’s all that matters. If you’re in front of the camera, people see you, and people get stereotypes from certain characters, or it’s a lot harder to cast an Asian person in a role than anything else. In front of the camera is a lot tougher.
What are you doing today when you get home? What do you spend most of your time doing on a daily basis?
It’s a combination of everything. I always have a few projects going on at once. Right now, I’m doing post on one project and planning another project. It kind of all varies. A lot of times I’m just surfing the Internet looking for ideas. I guess that’s conceptualizing. I would say I’m either working in pre-production or post-production most of the time. A lot of my shoots are just one day because we try to cram everything in one day and spend all of our money in one day so that all of our resources are spent a lot better. All of my music videos are one day. A lot of my commercials are one-day shoots just because your resources are a lot more well spent if you fit everything into one day.
So then what’s the most time you have spent doing one video?
I think the longest time I spent shooting was 15 hours. Most of the time, we usually wrap in 12 to 13 hours. I try not to go much more than that. I know that some people go 15 to 18 hours. It gets to a point where everyone is just exhausted, and it’s not constructive to go on any longer. It’s more than that. Usually we try to stay under 12 hours and usually we do.
What’s the highest compliment anyone can pay you in any area of your life?
The highest compliment would be someone sharing my video on their Twitter, Facebook, or email. That is basically the highest compliment because it’s the most constructive compliment. I get people leaving comments on my video saying, “Wow that was awesome!” but if they don’t share the video then it doesn’t really become constructive. Once they share the video, all of a sudden their great compliment or indirect compliment turns into more views that makes me more successful or the artist more successful. I think that’s the highest compliment. Other than that, I get the, “Wow, that was cool” or “Wow, you’re such a great director,” but once you get a few of those they kind of just jumble up in a pile on their own. What’s even better than that is when a big blog picks it up. Gizmodo has featured my stuff a number of times, and there’s been a number of big blogs that have featured my stuff. I think that even goes past a compliment because they send traffic my way, and that’s the holy grail is getting featured on a big blog.
What can we expect from you in the short term future?
We just finished post-production on a short film called “Already Gone,” which is based on a featured script, and that’s releasing on April 16th. That’s the big thing that we’re working on right now because if this video is successful then that would give attention to the featured script, and maybe we could get funding to do a featured script. I’m also working on a music video for Kina Grannis. I’m working on a commercial, but I don’t think I’m allowed to say on what commercial I’m working on quite yet. They’re really hush-hush about that kind of stuff. Lot of cool other stuff going on.
Long term, say 10 years from now, what do you envision for yourself?
The ultimate goal would be to do a studio feature. 10 years from now would be great to do a 50 million dollar or 100 million dollar movie. Granted, I’m only 26, so there’s still some time in there to learn more and become more seasoned and all of that. I’m not really rushing into getting that all done, but the ultimate goal would be to do a studio feature.
Lastly, for the Gleeks out there, what was it like working with Harry Shum Jr.?
Harry is awesome. He’s one of the busiest guys I know. He’s always willing to go that extra mile. He was willing to get dirtied up for “3 Minutes.” He was willing to get dirtied up for “Already Gone.” We developed a friendship. As long as he has time, he’s always down to do anything. That’s what’s so great about him. Even though he’s on a primetime network TV show, he’s always down to do our little web videos for free. That’s what’s so great about him.
How do we stalk you?
Ross Ching: I‘m pretty much just Ross Ching everywhere.
YouTube: RastaChingy. But no one really follows me on YouTube. I don’t really post much stuff on YouTube because I like branding myself as an artistic endeavor. Also, on YouTube, there’s usually someone else attached to the project that can put it in a better spot than me, like with “3 Minutes,” Harry put it on his channel. Pretty much it’s Ross Ching everywhere. That’s how I made it.