With a college degree at 18 and now running one of Silicon Valley’s hottest startups, Kiip Co-founder Brian Wong holds some pretty notable career highlights at a mere 21 years of age. NMR had the pleasure of meeting up with the “30 Under 30” entrepreneur during our last visit to NorCal. It was apparent from watching Brian in action that he knows how to balance work and play — one moment he’s joking around and throwing freeze-dried ice cream at his employees, and the next, he’s pure bawce. He is the true epitome of the company motto that is plastered all around his office: “Get Shit Done!” Read on to learn what Brian Wong shared with NMR about how he conceptualized the initial idea for his company Kiip (pronounced “keep”), the lessons he’s learned as a young entrepreneur and the future of his company now they’ve gotten 11 million dollars in funding.
What takes up most of your time right now?
Brian Wong: Most of my time spent right now is hiring. I think it’s a time-consuming process because you have to spend time with the person. It’s almost like dating. You got to meet them and figure out what they’re like or what they aren’t like and how you think they could fit into a role. Our hiring process is very unique. We actually rather than finding someone who happens to fall into a general bucket and say, “Okay, do this,” and kinda dictate it and that role and responsibility, I’d rather have them write their own job descriptions. Most people, when they come in, I have them write their own job descriptions, and that’s how we actually vet them. If their job description matches what we are looking for, then we think it’s a good fit. The reason why we do this is because as long as I know that this is what you like doing 24 hours a day, and it’s aligned with what we need then it’s a best fit, rather than I think I need things, you only like to do these things, but I’m going to force you to do these things, and you’re going to be unhappy anyway, so I might as well take the leisure of spending time finding the person with their desires matching what our wants are. After that, when we nail down our candidates, I spend usually a good lunch or a dinner where I get to know them personally. Then I bring them to meet the team. When they meet the team, we have panel interviews where we have three or four at a time coming in, and we meet with them and the purpose of these conversations are less about your skill set like, “Can you do this” or Can you do that?” They know that when Brian brings someone in they’re most likely already past that stage, and we already know they can do this stuff, but it’s how they fit in the culture level and how they are like on a personality level. If they don’t like that person then they have a veto right. Every person has a veto right, and that’s what makes our process unique and very time-consuming.
What are your guilty pleasures?
Ice cream. I love ice cream. It’s like, oh my gosh. San Francisco is the best city for ice cream because there’s three amazing ice cream places. Smitten’s is this new ice cream place that opened up in Octavia and Haight Valley, basically. It’s made in front of you — ice cream with liquid nitrogen. There’s another place called Bi-Rite and another place called Mitchell’s and another place called Humphry Slocombe, and those places are just awesome. So, ice cream for sure after I moved here. Before I moved here, I was already a big fan, but after I moved, it’s even worse now. Another guilty pleasure is, I mean, I do steal away and play the occasional FPS, and I try to keep my gaming habit up, but I can’t usually because the amount of time I have to spare is almost nothing. I mainly play, obviously, on the iPad and my Mac, and I’m super stoked that “Counter-Strike: Source” is now out for the Mac because of Steam. When it came out it was amazing.
What are your pet peeves?
Dirty glasses, because the second people meet with you and there’s shit all over their glasses, and it’s like, seriously dude, at least clean it. Second is incompetence. People who clearly know that they are not good enough at what they’re doing and pretend they’re not, and that’s just very annoying to me. And you can usually tell and most people will know but aren’t harsh enough to call it out. What else really bugs me? Almost irresponsible designs — so even if you’re not a designer, when you’re making a deck or something visual at least have shit aligned. At least have it, like, generally in the same proportion or the same general font or the same general design guidelines. Because I’m a designer, right, and I get really bugged by small little things like the font being off or some things not being capitalized or a period missing or a box being slightly bigger than the other one. When I see products I’ll immediately see it. That one, that’s one pixel off. Usually, they’re like, “Really?” and I’m like, “Yes, it is. You have to fix it.” I would be so bothered. The best part is that our design team is very pixel-perfect, and I don’t have this problem with our own company, but usually other companies I work with it’s like, “Guys, you’re a multi-billion dollar company — at least align your shit.” It’s part of a design philosophy that I have in my head. The other is people who are really slow in the security line for the TSA where they literally have 8,000 things. Dude, you don’t need to pull out everything in your bag. Just pull out your little zippy locky bag, put your fucking laptop down and you’re good to go, and just stop it, because everybody behind you is in a hurry.
Helvetica or Arial?
What’s uglier: Comic Sans or Papyrus?
Ooo! If I were to choose, it would be Papyrus. Comic Sans is okay. It’s proportional at least. The funny part is there are moments in time when Comic Sans is appropriate; when you’re making a comic. There’s not really a moment in time when Papyrus is appropriate unless you’re doing a project on Egypt, and even if you were it wouldn’t be appropriate.
Your least favorite food.
I like all food. One that I don’t like too much is the sea urchin stuff, uni. The texture is just weird. It’s tasteless but the texture is creepy. I probably ate it a year ago, and it was just not for me. Another is durian. I find durian absolutely repulsive, and apologies if someone here is a fan of durian. It’s very polarizing because some people don’t actually find the smell as repulsive as others. I think it’s a genetic thing. For me, unfortunately, I’m on the side of the genetic part where I think it’s repulsive and it smells really, really bad. Even if it tastes sweet, I can’t handle the smell even as I’m tasting it. So, I lived in Singapore for seven months, and I remember you can’t bring durian onto public transportation because it just smelled so bad. One of my friends was an absolute fan of it, and every time we went to the market she was like, “Ooh durian durian durian!” They’re huge fans of durian. You have durian ice cream, durian pancakes, durian candy. I’m like, “Are you kidding me? This stuff is so fucking gross. It looks disgusting! It looks like embryos!”
Favorite city in the world?
I would have to say Singapore still. People rat on Singapore all the time. They think it’s boring. It is pretty boring. It’s neat but here’s the thing. I’ll tell you why I like it. It’s less about the city itself and more about the people. When I met people there it was party time everyday. It’s a great place to spring off into other areas in Southeast Asia. You’re literally an hour flight away from Bangkok and all the beautiful beaches in Thailand. Malaysia is just a four-hour drive. You can take a bus for two hours and you get to Jahor. Singapore for sure, since I spent so much time there. I actually liked the weather because you didn’t have to care about the layers. You just have to walk out in t-shirt and jeans, and you’re good to go. So Singapore, definitely, is still at the top. The food is ridiculous. You literally pay two bucks, and you can get a pretty decent dinner. The food is not bad either. They have these canteens where it’s basically an outdoor cafeteria, and it’s like, “Ooo, that’s sketchy,” but they’re so strict on cleanliness that they get inspected every month. You go there and it’s super clean, like pristine, and you’re like, “Wow, pretty cool.”
Give us an embarrassing moment in your life.
The more recent one was being pulled over for going 100 on the I-5, which is pretty embarrassing. I didn’t get arrested, which is good.
Was it a huge ticket?
It was a massive ticket. I was just like, whatever. When I was younger, I decided to be smart and try to ride a bike cross-handed, like my right arm on the left handle and I was like, “Yeah!” and I totally bailed, and it just destroyed everything. I had lots of cuts and bruises, and I chipped my tooth, which is something really fucking stupid. You do a lot of dumb stuff as a kid. Another embarrassing moment, I used to sing in a choir — that itself is somewhat embarrassing, but second most embarrassing to that is the fact that it was a boys choir, and it was before I hit my voice change. Before I hit puberty, I was singing as a girl in this boys choir. My parents found it hilarious because I was singing and touring around the country, and I was a pretty good fucking singer so don’t mess with me 15 years ago.
What’s the longest you’ve gone without sleep?
I think it was three days. It was in school to finish studying and papers and everything crammed into one. It was three days. I remember that, and it was really tough.
Give us a fun fact about yourself.
I used to play ice hockey. Most people don’t think so because I’m so skinny, and I could get squashed like a pebble. Back when I was a little more girthy, I actually played full body contact ice hockey. I was actually pretty decent. I started playing when I was 7 years old, and I played for a good 10 years. I was a center, so I was the main dude on the ice. I actually stopped playing because I got injured. I broke my left knee, a minor break, but it was a small fracture on my lower femur. You’re not supposed to break your femur. It’s one of the biggest bones in your body, and it should not break but it did. I was in a wheelchair for a few months, and that’s one of the reasons why I started my first company, because I had nothing better to do. There’s a reason for everything. I stopped playing hockey after that.
But if you hadn’t broken it, you would’ve gone on to become a hockey player.
Yeah, I would’ve totally become the Jeremy Lin of the NHL.
Walk us through a typical day for you.
That’s not an easy question. Well, let’s go through the day. Well, this day was pretty weird. I spent most of the day at NASA, so we were doing a whole tour, we presented to a bunch of engineers, I saw the wind tunnels and the vertical flight simulator. I sat in the only flight simulator that can help properly render a landing for a space shuttle, which is obviously irrelevant right now because the space shuttle has been retired, but it’s pretty fucking cool to see that. Then I had lunch with a bunch of the innovation people, and I left and drove back. Then I had a meeting with someone with a VC at the creamery and had a call with someone who we’re going to hire, and then I was cramming out an offer letter. Then you guys came along and then later today, I have a business development get-together with the team. After that, I have a dinner with a bunch of CEOs from the Verizon Ventures portfolio. Verizon is one of our investors, so I have a dinner there. It’s pretty brutal everyday. Yesterday, I woke up in the morning and had a call with New York; one of the companies there wanted to partner with us. Then I had coffee with a potential dev partner. Then I had a meeting with a reporter. Oh, we had our first speaker series at Kiip. We now have a good 17 people in this physical office, so we were like, “Let’s have someone come in from outside who’s a baller and speak to the team and share wisdom,” and this guy was actually — fun history fact — was one of the first guys at an agency level that bought from our platform, so he was one of our first buyers. He came to explain why we were cool and the 101 on agencies. Then, I went to IGN and spoke to their entire company. They do a speakers series there, and so they invited me.
After that, I toured with my co-founders to three different office spaces. We’re going to expand and double our staff within the next year. We need more space, so we’re looking at awesome mind-blowing office spaces that I want to move into tomorrow, and so we’ve been assessing that. That was really fun, and it was one of those things where you sit back and reflect and think; we were three guys in offices up at the pier all crammed together at one desk, and now where we are today is kind of emotional and it makes me feel really excited about the future. I had a meeting with Verizon again for another reason, and it was up at their app innovation center. Then I went to a panel with a bunch of Anheuser-Busch executives. They trucked in a bunch of executives all around the world that were leading all the beer marketing, and I was a speaker at a panel with a bunch of other start-ups. That was a couple of hours there, and then I went home and immediately crashed because I was extremely exhausted, but that day was a typical day. It’s a combination of speaking, a combination of meeting, a combination of hiring, a combination of tactical things a CEO would do like hiring and sending out offer letters and checking with the team. It’s always a ball, and it is what it is.
So, you skipped four grades and was able to get into college at 14. You graduated college at 18 and worked for Digg, and then started your own company raising $4.4 million in venture capital. Where do you find this drive to do so much at such a young age?
People ask if it was a cause-and-effect-around drive, and I will tell you that it’s completely irrelevant. I think it was more of the environmental factors that drove me to do this. As in I got laid off, as in I didn’t want to rely on other people anymore and pay for mistakes that I didn’t make. There’s just a lot of things that I realized earlier that other people, because I just happened to be out thrown into the real world so quickly at the age of 18. You realize a lot of things. There’s a lot of things that people have told you can’t be done but actually can be done if you think about it hard enough and find the right people. You constantly get thrown into the impossible situations, but you find the environments like San Francisco that can help you get through them and provide you with opportunities that you mostly like would have never seen before. That to me was the combination of everything. Yes, I personally like to move very quickly, but that’s my timeline. Time is very relative. To me, a day is actually long, a minute, an hour. Moving really quickly, for me, is one of the things I pride myself on being able to do. That’s why I think people look at it from the outside perspective as, “Whoa, so fast! He must be super motivated!” It’s the way that I operate. It happens to be faster than other people, which just happens to help the company and our progress.
Would you say that you’re kind of an impatient guy?
Yeah, I’ve got certain characteristics that reflect impatience. It’s less about impatience, and it’s more that I understand already about what people are trying to get at, and I don’t need them spending another two minutes trying to explain themselves. There’s a difference. It’s a fine line between being impatient and not wanting to waste time.
You’ve been asked this question many times already, but for the sake of our readers, gives us a low down on your company.
Kiip is a mobile rewards network. Essentially, what we realized was that every time you play a game or you do something in a game it involves some kind of an achievement. You level up, you get a top score and you do something meaningful. Gaming happens to be the most popular activity on the smart phone. With that market exploding, we realized that “Hey, there’s an opportunity,” but because I’m a marketer, I realize that brands want to be there when there’s a lot of eyeballs, and the ways that they have right now are quite bad — banner ads being one of them and nobody likes them. Taking back into consideration of achievement mode with these things happening all the time already, why not try to get into those moments and help brands to do that, and it’s through awards. We do rewards for virtual achievements in game, so imagine leveling up and getting a free Carls Jr. burger or a free Vitamin Water or something. We decided to do it whilst having the user at the top of the pyramid making sure that they actually got something in return and wasn’t interrupted in finding a natural pause in play and was relevant to the experience that they were already a part of.
You mentioned in an interview with Kevin Rose that the idea for Kiip sparked during a flight where you noticed that the majority of the people were on their phones playing games and what not. Did you have the full idea of what you wanted to do then and there, or did you take time to develop it? If yes, how long did it take?
I didn’t have the idea then and there. I did realize that there was a nascent market, and it was something that I wanted to tackle, so I dove in. It was more about a month of hibernating, figuring out ideas and tweaking things before I came up with the final concept. I knew that achievements were cool, but I didn’t know what to do with them yet, so I spent a lot of time mapping out what achievements were in the first place, so, like leveling up, top scorer, sharing something, beating your last lap, having a continuous streak and all sorts of things. These things are common in one characteristic, and that’s when you’re actually happy. That’s when I knew there needed to be some kind of reciprocal nature to using that moment, and that was in the form of a reward. That was basically it, and that’s what drove me to where I am today.
How did you come up with the name for your company?
Kiip is a play on the word keep. We love the puns. Kiip them playing. Kiip them happy. It’s a Kiiper. Play for Kiips. We chose double i’s because, of course, double e’s was taken, and double i’s is an homage to the Wii, so we thought people would get that, but people still call it “kipp,” which is okay. I’m cool with that. It also happens to mean “chicken” in Dutch.
In this day and age of start-ups, there’s always people looking for the next big idea that they can capitalize on. Is coming up with great ideas a formulating process with you, or is it something that simply comes to you as you expose yourself to different situations in life that allow creativity?
No, there’s no formula. More for me is instinct. If you see something and you can’t stop thinking about it, then it’s a good indicator. If you thought about it, and you were like, “Eh, I don’t really know if this is something that I want to do,” you will usually be the best indicator of it. Most people have not experienced that overwhelming thing before where you are consumed by an idea for several months, if not years. When you do, you’re going to tackle. When you don’t, try something that you think is going to be the least annoying for you and see what happens after that.
Did you ever just spend a day where it was just thinking?
You’ve been able to meet some great people in networking from Fred Wilson to the executives from Digg, which you ultimately got a job offer from. Were you always such a social guy and into networking?
I didn’t know it was called networking until later on. I just liked talking to people, and I like figuring out what they’re up to, and I like figuring out their concerns. I always like peeling back the layers and figuring people out. It’s just one of those things that I like doing. People sometimes get taken aback because I usually get into things very quickly. People know me for starting off conversations as, “So, what’s your story?” It’s the best way to start off a networking conversation because they’ll be like, “What story? You mean my life story? My work story?” and I’d be like, “Whatever you want to share.” Usually, people launch into this explanation about they were blah years old and their mom came in and said, “Here’s your laptop” and they’re like, “Oh my god, it’s amazing.” There’s all sorts of shit you learn when you leave it free form, and I just like doing that. You’ll notice people’s mannerisms and things that make them feel awkward and you know what to do. Usually, it’s a game for me to figure out how to learn more and somehow figure out a way to work with them.
It’s actually interesting, because you said during Kevin Rose’s interview that you were a nerd, and I wasn’t sure if you were joking around about that. Typically, the general stereotype is that nerds are introverts.
That’s a geek. The words are semantics. I’ve always been pretty social. When I was younger, I definitely had less restraint, which was one of the reasons why I was a little bit more annoying to people. I am still pretty annoying, but I’m less annoying now because I had to learn restraint for things I say because people don’t always want to hear the truth because it’s the truth. It’s the way it is and that’s how life works. Obviously, this came from age, and I’m saying this as if I’m an old dude, and I’m not. I still have a lot to learn, and we’ll see what happens.
What are some things that you’ve learned so far by being the boss of your own company? What have been the biggest challenges?
The product and the selling. Those two aren’t usually the hardest part; it’s actually the people. It’s building a new team, retaining them, keeping them happy, being a friend and a mentor and a good listener and just a guiding light. It’s hard when you yourself sometimes don’t have a guiding light, and you have to come up with something. That’s one of the things you’ll never learn until you sit in a situation where there’s 22 people in this company that rely on me for their well-being, and that’s a lot of pressure that I’ve grown to be able to work with and be able to manage. It’s not easy. That’s the hardest part. Most people don’t realize this. You’ll have your hunch. You’ll have fun doing it. You’ll play around with products and you’ll create markets and you’ll take over the world, but at the end of the day the only way to do that is people.
After graduating college, did you ever have the passion to pursue any future education or has starting your own company has always been your ultimate goal?
I never had the ultimate goal of starting my own company. I didn’t really go down to the valley and go, “I’m going to start a company and raise VC money.” It never happened that way. Never. My ambitions were in marketing. I wanted to be in an agency and be an ad director that walked around like John Draper and fucking calling out shit and wearing nice suits and stuff. I really wanted to do that because I did marketing. Then I quickly realized that life plays fun games on you. You end up working on stuff that literally is the cross section of three of the most passionate things of your life. For me, it’s this company. I love design, we’re very consumer-facing, and we have great design, and our UX and UI are beyond anything that most people have seen. I like marketing, and I work with brands, so I have have fun doing that. And I also like gaming. I’ve always played games, and I spend time kicking ass as much as I could, and I have the chance to do that now. It’s weird. Life does this to you. You’ll be told that you’re in a bucket and you should do what we’re learning to do. Like, you studied economics and you should do economics related thing. That’s bullshit. The lady that I met at NASA is the super high level director of innovation — she studied literature in college. It’s irrelevant to NASA. She got there, and she’s a genius, and it’s amazing. Most people don’t realize this. There’s a lot of things in life and if you keep an open mind, magical things can happen.
If you never started Kiip what do you think you’d be doing now?
I think I’d still be doing something related to starting a company. I got hooked to it when I started building my first business in design. I just realized when you have control of everything and you know at least the first 20 steps — maybe not the last 80 steps, but you know the first 20 steps — it’s pretty fun. I remember one time when I first applied to my job at an agency, that person told me that I was never designed to work for anybody. I didnt’t know if that was an insult or a compliment, but I think it was a little bit of both. That’s just an indicator of what I am. I’m incompatible with having a manager. I just don’t do that. The only way to do that is start your own thing.
What does your family think of all of this? Have they always been supportive in everything you did in life?
My parents have always been incredibly supportive, and I love them for that. They don’t care if I don’t call then and disappear for three weeks, which I did this month because there was so much happening. My mom would do little things and call me and say, “You didn’t tweet all day today. Are you okay? Are you alive?” I’ll be like, “Yes, I’m okay. I didn’t tweet because I was travelling.” She checks out my Twitter page all the time to keep tabs on what I’m doing because I do update Twitter as frequently as I can. My parents have always been supportive. They kind of do the half-joke Asian jab of, “Go out and get your MBA,” but I know they’re just being funny. My brother has been very supportive. He’s four years older than me. I kind of owe it to them to do something great here because my parents gave me the environment where I didn’t have to care about anything but to work really hard and do something meaningful. I’m very lucky to be in this situation.
What does your bother do now?
I think he’s with a design company. He studied fashion design, so he’s doing that.
Is that how you picked up design? I remember you saying you were self-taught.
We never really shared the same type of design interests. His design interests are around certain fashion, combos and types and flair. Mine is more around tactical UI and around physical web interfaces. I was just fascinated by that shit, and I wanted build it so I taught myself in Photoshop, and it’s super fun. It’s still very fun now, but I just don’t have enough time to do it.
Let’s give you a scenario: say your son or daughter just got into high school as a freshman, and they came up to you and said, “Hey, I want to quit high school and start my own company. I have an idea.” What would you say?
Go for it. By the time I have a son or daughter, I’d probably be 20, 25 or something, and the world is going to be a lot different, and I think education is going to be shaken up, and it’s going to be less and less relevant than the current form that we know about. I highly recommend it because I’ve done it, and I know how they’ll feel, and I can coach them through it. If I was in the dark and I didn’t understand this process, then I’d be a little scared and try to convince them otherwise. But I would be in the know, and I can feasibly guide them through the first few stages of what they want to do.
Have there been any moments where you doubted yourself, whether it’s an idea or an action?
Yes. I think everybody has doubts. If you don’t, you’re weird and you’re psychopathic. Everyday is a rollercoaster for us. Start ups are like this. One minute, we’re like, “Yeah! We’re fucking awesome! We’re going to own the world!” and then another minute you’re like, “Oh my god, this is going to fail.” There are all sorts of things that happen where you go through it enough and you realize what really matters is the longer term vision. If I’m confident in longer term vision, then everything else falls into place. It’s very normal, and you have to accept that and live with it.
August 6, 2012 – We follow up with Brian on recent developments at Kiip.
Congratulations on recently raising 11 million dollars for Kiip. In a recent interview, you said that most of the money was going towards hiring new people. You stated that you have a team of 30 right now and want to expand to 50. How has the process been so far?
It’s definitely an exciting time at Kiip. We have been growing rapidly, not only in the size of our network, but also staff. We just opened our first European office, in London. We’re also in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto and New York. Our expansion is being turbocharged by our recent $11 million capital infusion, which is going a long way toward helping us find some of the brightest talent in the world to strengthen Kiip’s ability to serve millions of app users and advertisers alike.
Kiip currently reaches about 40 million unique visitors per month. What are some interesting ways you’ve been marketing your product?
One of our core philosophies at Kiip is to continually look for new ways to benefit everyone in the mobile marketing world, including app users, developers and the brands doing the marketing. One of the unique methods we are pioneering is known as a “Swarm.” A Swarm is a flash event hosted on participating Kiip apps over a couple of days, during which time, one of our world-class brands provides users with tens of thousands dollars worth of rewards for posting high scores or other user achievements. Users are excited to win such large prizes for using the apps they enjoy, developers are able to distinguish themselves from the host of other apps vying for users’ attention, and the participating brand gets mobile exposure unlike anything done before. Our most recent Swarm showed that consumers used the apps three times longer than normal during the event, and the participating brand was advertised in front of hundreds of thousands of new unique users. This type of event, just one of the ways Kiip is changing the way brands interact with mobile users, highlights the vast potential for growth we have moving forward.
Kiip currently has a variety of major brands like Starbucks and Disney as clients. If I’m a small business, my biggest question would be whether using a product like this is even within my budget. Does Kiip have any sort of plans to appeal to smaller businesses, if you don’t already?
This is one of the things that makes our approach to rewards marketing in the mobile environment so dynamic and exciting – we can find a target audience, whether geographically or demographically, and get a greater return on investment than any other advertising method out there. It’s absolutely crucial for small businesses to get a major bang for their buck. Using Kiip, small businesses are able to achieve 18-22 percent initial engagement rates, which balloon to 50 percent for repeat users. This level of performance is absolutely unheard of using conventional advertising approaches. Increasingly, small businesses won’t be able to afford not to participate with Kiip as more and more of their customer base uses mobile technology and looks forward to rewards.
You recently hired a CEO coach to help you grow as a chief executive and to improve your company culture. In my last visit to your office, I loved the atmosphere and the synergies between your employees. What, exactly, still needs improving?
You are never done learning; if you are, you are done growing. Right now, my primary emphasis is on expanding my ability to grow Kiip into a larger company without losing our vibrant culture. It is all about balancing speed and growth. With growth tends to come operational inefficiencies – it takes someone who has seen it before, like the coach I brought in, to help identify areas in which we need to bring great people in to complement our existing team’s strengths.
You always said that in advertising you always need to be the hot girl. Explain.
If you are not innovating in advertising, particularly mobile advertising, you are going to be left behind; it’s really that simple. The world is just developing way too fast for us to get complacent. We are absolutely driven to be at the leading edge of innovation in our market and to present the newest, smartest and sexiest way of connecting the world’s best brands and app developers with a vast audience of consumers who want those products and services.
With so many great things happening to Kiip. What are some exciting things we can expect from you guys in the next year?
We still have a lot up our sleeve. Expect to see us in places you might least expect